Limited Resources #13 – Marshall and Ryan – Manner Base

I agree on taking the flyer over Nissa’s Chosen, sure it’s a 2/3 but for GG. And yes, you send a strong signal but it will start affecting you pick 9, the pick in which you won’t find a green card. 😉 Let’s not forget as important as that signal of yours is, others might pick green early as well which puts you at a disadvantage, for the Chosen is only good if you have the mana to play it turn 2 every single time. On the other hand, if Journey to Nowhere would be the only white card to first pick, your signal is much more useful, potentially netting you a few white cards starting pick 10 and later by sending others a message while risking only a splash color commitment.

Premature gg’s are my biggest pet peeve playing online. There was one memorable game where my opponent said “gg” 3 or 4 times to me, thinking he had won, and I ended up winning. Feels great, like you said.

On the other hand, I remember watching a replay where an early gg won the match during last year’s extended season. The guy was playing bant against elves combo, and the elf player went for Predator Dragon. Bant player typed “gg”, causing the elf player to sac all of his elves to the dragon, and then it gets hit by Bant Charm. Had the elf player left some back he would have won. Anyway, kind of shady, but I was reminded of it listening to Ryan’s “why I never trust anyone in paper anymore” anecdote.

I think that the geopead would probably be the correct pick in your pack. Assuming that you’re doing and eight man draft 1st picking the geopead signals your neighbor to your left that you are strongly not in black and (assuming he decides to take the hideous end) also causes the player to his left to assume black is open. This at the least forces your two neighbors to fight over black cards for the remainder of the 1st pack, by which time you could have cut red entirely. Which would probably lead to high quality red in the second pack for at least the first 3-4 picks. Furthermore it seems to me that playable black dries up much faster than playable red does. I also think that zektar shrine and slaughter cry are sub-optimal cards in a vacuum, however they both can fit into the same archtype as the geopead, and it isn’t unreasonable to think that one of them might table, considering both neighbors to your left would be heavy black and assuming that there will be at least one (if not two or more) “rouge” strategies like monogreen or base blue//base white.

Great show once again.

Crack a pack: With that black, youre likely to screw 2 of your neighbours, so for me its Geopede vs Welkin Tern, which even with Blue being underdrafted, will likely make me pick the geopede. I like Evangel as a card (especially since ive gotten 3 of them in a deck with 8 additional allies… magical christmas land, much?), but with another WHITE ALLY in the pack, hes definitly not worth taking over aggresive blue or red cards.

Etiquette 1 (“gg”): First of all, stop hating on 17 year olds!!!!!1 (im just kidding, i know we suck when it comes to online gaming)

Second: While ive never played on MTGO, ive been playing different games online and competitive for a long time (warcraft3 in a league team etc.). In WC3 and Starcraft, the two big strategy games in terms of e-sports, starting your game with a gl hf (good luck have fun) is almost mandatory to not seem weird, and its probably one of the first things that a player playing on the open online matchmaking system will learn, even before actually learning how to be good at the game. You get a “gl hf” about 90% of the time, aswell as a gg at the end of the game with a slightly lower percentage.
On the other hand, saying GG first, no matter how over the game is, is also seen as extremely rude there, as youve described on the show. The “gg” message on the loser’s side is a signal of concession as well as an friendly nod to the winner, and is always given by mannered players. So the issue of cocky “i win, gg”-sayers as well as people not talking at all is definitly not limited to magic, and the same etiquette seems to apply to many games, which is why i went into magic with that view of mannered play…
I started half a year ago and have probably played 20 times as many matches online, as i have in real life (literally, something like 500 to 25) and the behaviour on Magic Workstation is even more horrendous than on Magic Online.
The most common interaction between me and my opponents is the little ” Player Lost” message popping up whenever the game is turning in my favour, as well as any time i make any sort of mistake or enforce any kind of rules, which fits…

Etiquette 2 (leaving the game): While i dont have to bother with timers when my opponent leaves (in MWS i just search for a new opponent, in magic-league, the tournaments are handmade and therefor dont have issues like that), it IS a terrible waste of time. The only upside to my opponent leaving early on, is that the quality of the game and therefor the quality of my practice would probably not have been very high with a player so willing to leave the game after he is in a bad situation. Ive had “chalice for 1, –> player lost” and even “savage lands –> player lost”, which just saves me a lot of time clashing with some donk (as unfriendly as that sounds)…

Etiquette 3 (whats casual): While ive had moments where i was so frustrated in real life, that i just took my 2 land belcher list and smashed 3-4 players searching for “fun, no p9” or “casual only”, after just those few games, i noticed that a. im ruining some timmies fun in this game right now and b. im not really getting any satisfaction out of griefing a guy by playing a deck that stomps him without resistance. I guess Belcher is even worse than Jund in that aspect, as playing Belcher against a Deck not running Chalice, Force of Will or similiar Combo Hate (which casual decks understandably wont) is almost exactly like goldfishing it, but griefing is griefing i guess…
As a reaction to that realisation, i tried to find out 2 things:
1. Where do i draw the line between casual and non-casual. A deck started being casual for me, as soon as you willingly detracted power from it, to add cards which bring you additional satisfaction by playing them, even if they result in a loss more frequently. Obviously this is not a very exact definition, as it requires you to “know better” and be aware of stronger possibilities of deck building, which not all casual players are, especially those strictly playing kitchen table magic, but the definition was very fitting for me as a turbo-spike (the very first deck i sat down and played magic with was a Top8 cedric phillips kithkin deck, because when asking my madison-local online friend, which i knew from playing warcraft. what an easy deck to start with was, he gave me that list, to play against another online buddy. I played about 400 games of online play before touching my first magic card, and i netdecked the whole Type2 metagame up and down (Faeries, Kithkin, Cruel Control, Merfolk, RDW, UW Lark, Elfball, 5c Cascade, Sygg Jund… ive played them all) before opening my first pack of cards).

2. I realised that after getting so awfully used to being able to netdeck any tier 1 deck i wanted and playing it for 30-40 games, then sticking with it or searching for the next one, it was REALLY REALLY difficult for me to play casually. I tried building my own casual decks and go through with some fun ideas, but i either threw them away because they werent succesful enough for my taste, or applied too many tier1 standards to it (enough card advantage, perfect metagamed sideboards, perfect curve etc.) for it to be a casual experience. My online friends were complaining from time to time that i could never play any casual decks, and i still dont have that ability. Conley Woods Magical Christmas Land or a Legacy Mono Brown Stax deck is about as casual as it gets for me… The only way im not playing solely for for the best deck, is when switching formats and playing multiplayer or EDH, which is forcing me out of my limited spike view on the game somehow (and i actually enjoy those anyways, which isnt the case for normal casual constructed)

Etiquette 4 (conceding): While, as i said, most of my MWS opponents just leave instead of actually conceding, an early concession is perfectly fine with me. On the other hand, i do so a lot of people freaking out over it, both when winning and when losing. Theres so many “”name” is a faggot leaver” games on the MWS game lists, its hard to count, but someone having to see the kill, isnt playing for the right reasons anyway, unless he doubts that the game was actually won. In a few cases i try to motivate my almost-conceding opponents to try and go the distance and do their best to still win it, just to get a more exact playtesting result (how does my deck on average do in a topdecking battle and so on), but most of the time, people will just concede when theyre fed up with the match, not when its actually lost…

Etiquette 5 (enforcing rules): While as a beginner and especially as a very unexperienced real life player, im making a lot of sloppy mistakes (even though i can feel that part of my game improving steadily… you dont get trigger reminders on the completly free interface of magic workstation, but i do remember drawing cards with a dark confidant on board a lot, as well as missing about 3-5 damage of bloodseeker triggers a game, but all of those are things that havent happened to me in weeks now), im often on the receiving side of such rule enforcements (oh god, im stacking clauses and brackets into each other so horribly complicated, that i doubt anyone can still follow the point of my story, but lets try anyways :P). While on the one hand i would like to have that takeback on my play to have an actual GAME instead of my opponent just owning me, i on the appreciate a stricter opponent, for making me pay attention the next time. Its obviously hard to show that appreciation when youve just made a horrible misplay and are on your way to losing the match because of it, but these unfortunate moments are what help me not do the same mistake twice (Last week’s was: Him: “wreak havoc your tundra (which i really needed against his land destruction based radha EDH” me: “mystical tutor for force of will, sac relic of progenitus, pitch condescend into force of will, target wreak havoc”. He then passed me the card to read it and made me discard / remove all the cards ive used in the process. I guess it wasnt truly my fault, cause i hadnt seen the card before, but it definitly taught me to ask for cards i havent seen before, especially with my limited knowledge of the magic cardpool outside of T2/Extended/Legacy staples)… I guess this feeling of usefulness in not getting that takeback is what most casual players and non-spikes lack, which makes the negative side of such an event even more dominating.

Etiquette 6 (angle-shots): While noone in my gaming environment is serious enough about magic to even think about such a trick (the most dominant format is a special version of 5-man-EDH games and while we have a 25-35 people turn out every friday, we rarely get to the 8 for a draft *sigh*), its obviously a good thing to watch out for, when going up in terms of skill. I pointed out why i appreciate not allowing takebacks above, totally independent from any tricks or attempts of cheating, but having players able to pull off such tricks in your playgroup only makes enforcing those more important

Worlds DQ: That was Charles Gindy and good sum up on the influence of intent. There have been so many people online mindlessly complaining about Kibler “stealing the title” and doing it on porpuse, but you can clearly see the difference between his play and the one Gindy did…

Transition to competitive: Definitly a difficult step to take, and im probably seeing this even lighter than it actually is, as i havent gone to any real tournaments either (friday nights aside) (side note: planning to make Göteburg, Lyon or Bochum my first Magic Event as well as Limited event, unless someone magically borrows me a deck for the PTQ season, which given my environment, i seriously doubt right now, so i guess ill get to give you a “thanks for improving my game” message after those 3 events are over. Its pretty sad that i had a GP in my hometown and wasnt playing magic yet when it happened, but i guess thats life). Im not too hesitant on enforcing rules i know are correct on others ((I take 1 from instigator / him: “-1, it has doublestrike” / I take 1 from instigator / he puts 2 goblins into play / i explain to him that making me take normal damage passes his first trigger) is a serious of plays that has happened to me THREE times in the course of this legacy season, one time while i was playing in the semi-finals of a 6 round single-eliminiation on magic-league and having a friend of mine watch over video stream while talking to him on ventrillo. He thought it was a cheap shot, for me it was perfectly normal, so i guess im more well prepared for tournament magic, or maybe i just like being a dick :P)

And yes, having a judge called on you feels bad, but its also a part of the learning process, as you said.

Jedi Mind Tricks: <3 Animal Rap feat. Kool G rap (ok, that was actually Chapins answer, but i have to fucking agree with him).

Jedi Mind tricks mind be cheap, but theyre a skillful part of the game. Not only is a good thing to be able to do if its your only out to winning the game, but as LSV said "most people who try to do Jedi Mind Tricks would probably be off better by trying to play better"… Theres a great segment on JMT in The Magic Show's coverage on Worlds (i think its episode 2 of the final coverage).
Includes different views on mind tricks as well as a few cool stories, so if the two of you havent seen it yet, its definitly worth checking out.
Also a cool chapin story similiar to the "swing for the win" was the story i remembered with which he originally introduced that phrase (im not sure if that correct, i just tried reading up on recent magic history as much as possible in the 6-7 months im playing so far, while also getting to play a reasonable amount). He had 2 green beates and a chameleon colossus, but not enough to finish and was dead on board. His mind trick was playing profane command for 3 with the comment "you lose 3 life and all legal targets gain fear" and then immidiatly swinging with all 3 creeatures. Obviously the colossus had pro black and didnt gain the fear bonus, but the trick worked and he swung for lethal.
It is a bit of cheating your opponent out of a win, but as you said, the burden is on you to see through it and analyze the gamestate well enough to not fall for it.

And i agree, you shouldnt go over the top with those tricks. You should definitly try to be fair with your tricks and definitly only use them when its 100% necessary to win the match AND if the game win is worth the loss of respect to you. While i guess i would have an advantage while trying to do these things at my local drafts, because i (and rightfully so) send out a lot of donk signals when playing, so people wouldnt expect these kind of tricks from me, but when playing a casual draft (we dont have pack prices, the positions in the swiss only determine the pick order of rares, so unless we open a foil misty rainforest like last week, it doesnt matter too much), showing a reasonable amount of respect to my opponent is more important to me than cheating them out of their win and getting a higher pick.

PS: Reading the card is always a good idea, but isnt the only solution 😛 German Reap & Sows bring lands into play TAPPED 😛

Anyways, long post is long and late time is late. 5:30am probably beats you, but i didnt have to talk 1.5 hours.

Episode once again greatly appreciated, especially because the steady listening to your show is reflected in my recent draft results.

Greetings, Pascal (…3000 on twitter, though i realise thats a terrible kiddy-name, which might be because i was 11 years old when picking it :P)

PS: Thanks for the input on my sealed pool. 2-0 in the league with the RW version of the pool =)

Holy crap Pascal longest comment in mtg cast history!